What ever happened to Willie Boy.....




The true story of Willie Boy, as I heard from the Indians in my family

Willie boy's Grave Marker in White WaterWhen I was a kid my Uncle Leroy, part Paiute Indian, Part Mexican, part white, told us the story of Willie Boy.

Supposedly an uncle of his and how he led the Sheriff and his pose From Palm Canyon south of Palm Springs, up through White Water and up into the Ruby Mt area....Today you can see thousands of High Powered Wind Mills scattered through the same area.

Who was Willie Boy and is his legend true? Even a movie, "Tell them Willie boy is here" was made in 1969 with Robert Blake playing Willie Boy, and Robert Redford playing the Sheriff, and was based on a book, which I own, called 'A Desert Manhunt'

As to the legend being true, most assuredly.  Did the movie "Tell them Willie boy is here" get it right?  Aside from "Tombstone" being very close to being historically correct, this movie is very close to the actual facts, places, and characters involved in the manhunt.

Willie Boy was a Paiute Indian, uncle to my uncle Leroy Arnize, (Arnesto in Spanish) who in 1909 ran off with his lover after killing her father in self defense.  He found him bent over, beating his girlfriend, named Lola, and when he tried to interfere and stop him, Lola's father went after Willie Boy.  So he had to kill him.  The tribal elders tried to defend Willie but White Man's law took precedent over Indain Law and Sheriff Cooper was dispatched from Riverside to track him down and charge Willie Boy with murder.

Willie and Lola are hunted for several days and were almost caught in White Water when Willie's Horse spooked as a Train went by.  But White Water was dry and they were able to escape under the track trestle and make it into the Hills to the north of White Wate.  Willie Boy had a clear shot of the posse as they advanced up the river bed, so he started taking pot shots at them, trying to kill their horses, hoping to slow them down.  But Willie Boy ends up accidentally shooting one of the bounty hunters as he walks in front of his horse just as Willie shot.  The Sheriff had another Murder charge on his hands..

They manage to evade the bounty hunters for several days until it's obvious that the posse was catching up to them.  So Lola shoots herself in order to slow down the posse's advance, but Sheriff Cooper thinks that Willie Boy has killed her, but doesn't understand why.  The posse is growing restless and most of them take off on their own to hunt Willie down.  But Sheriff Cooper goes off alone to try and kill Willie Boy, before the main posse catches up to him.

As soon as Cooper catches up, he comes under fire from Willie Boy who is dug into a small cave at the top of Ruby Mountain.  Cooper is almost shot several times as he tries to climb up the hill.  In truth, the Sheriff finally manages to make his way up behind Willie and tries to talk him to surrendering.  But Willie Boy wont surrender.  Willie swings around to try to shoot the Sheriff, but Sheriff Cooper Beats him with his shot gun.  When the Sheriff checks Willie Boy's body the Sheriff  discovers that Willie was out of bullets.  The Sherrif pulled Willie Boy's gun out of his pants and discovers that it too is empty. To Cooper it is evident that Willie Boy Forced the Sheriff to kill him, in other words, perhaps the first "suicide by cop".

The Sheriff is actually crestfallen.  He carefully gathers Willie Boy's body, carries him down the slope of Ruby Mt to his horse and the waiting posse..  There are several Tribal leaders with the posse and the Sheriff gives them the body of Willie Boy, who then take Willie's body away and later burn it.

The Bounty hunters are not happy with Sheriff Cooper. They wanted Willie Boy's  body to collect their money they felt they had coming to them.  One of the posse members is reported to have said that the 'People have got see something so they will be sure this murder is dead'.  Sheriff Cooper is reported to have responded.  "Sorry, I dont have any souvenirs for them"

Willy Boy's grave monument is erected at the exact same location where he was shot, died and buried by the tribal leaders and has never been disturbed in any way.  So the next time you are out by White Water, remember, that Willie boy was really out there, causing all sorts of trouble and creating a undying legend.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

the families of willie boy and lolas TODAY still fight about whether willie boy killed lola or not, his family says he didnt take her they ran away together they loved each other and he wouldnt hurt her. and that the posse killed lola mistakenly for willie boy. also making him look more of a murderer. i would love to travel to talk to the familes. i am a member of the chemehuevi indian tribe in ca and had always heard about willie boy. i believe the posse is not telling he whole truth about what really happened but whatever story you hear its up to you what to believe.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

I'm a grad student at UC-Riverside looking for family histories of this story. Please let me know if you have given your family's info to a library, or if you have info at home and are willing to be interviewed.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

I am a member of the Morongo Basin Historical Society in Landers, CA. We are right in the heart of Willie Boy country. Please check out our website www.mbhs.net and view our Give Big video about Willie Boy by clicking on "Support the Morongo Basin Historical Society now." The history of the Willie Boy saga is still being rewritten over 100 years later.

If you want you can donate as little as $10 for our online fundraiser now or on May 8th to help support our continued efforts to research history of WB.

Let's keep History Alive! Share this site with your history friends.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

WAIT THE POSSE SHOT THE GIRL BECAUSE SHE WAS WEARING WILLIES JACKET.AND IT WAS NOT WILLIE THEY SHOWED IT WAS A FRESH DEAD GUY IN A CLEAN SHIRT NOT WILLIE WHO HAD A DIRTY SHIRT ON.

The Official Willie Boy Story

OK THE OFFICIAL STORY I HAVE IS THE POSSE SHOT THE GIRL WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO ADMITTED IT.
SHE HAD WILLIES JACKET ON.. WHY WOULD A TABOO LOVE AFFAIR END BY HIM NO WAY!
HE LOVED HER NO WAY WOULD HE KILL HER .. THE POSSE LIED .. WILLIE BOY LIVED ON IN CENTRAL CALI.
THE DEAD BODY WAS NEVER SHOWN EXCEPT AT A DISTANCE THE DEAD BODY HAD A NICE CLEAN WHITE SHIRT ON ALSO. WILLIE DID NOT DIE ...THE TRUTH IS HEARD

Re: The Official Willie Boy Story

Makes a lot more sense then he killed the woman he loved.

Re: The Official Willie Boy Story

R.I.P. WILLIE AN EVERYONE AROUND THAT TIME

Willie Boy

I have never heard of Willie Boy

Re: Willie Boy

Read newspaper archives. They won't be 100% truthful, but you'll get an idea of what happened. Also, check out the movie made years ago on this story, entitled: WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO WILLIE BOY.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

Being a friend of Charlie Reche's grandson it is interesting to read what is written here, most of it not based on first hand account's. Erickrz has the story pretty much correct, there was little doubt in the posse's mind that Billie Boy killed the girl because she was slowing him down, and the posse was about to stop the chase (according to the Reche's) until that incident. Billie Boy was described as a Paiute runner, who mostly made his living picking fruit on the Banning Bench. Billie Boy is dead and that was verified by Charley Reche and others. Like most stories of the old west you can't much believe what is written by those johnnie come lately's.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

To the first guy...{ghostmarker} giving a movie plot does not make it true or insider info.

To second guy...[davey] willie boy is gay????theirs one i had not heard...ever.<but>...?

Please keep your facts,facts. My grandfather was honest and a good cop!

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

This page needs editing: 'there' needs to be replaced with 'their' a few times.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

My great grandfather was a deputy in Riverside, CA during these times. He published an auto biography called "The closing of the west". There is a section about the Willie Boy manhunt. It was a well known fact that Willie Boy was also homosexual and was having a relationship with his girlfriends father. He killed him in a drunken rage after the man was going to expose the relationship. Then the running came.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

Hello and thank you for your comments.
I would love to read your great grandfather's book.
What was his name? Grace

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

Hi - I have never heard of these stories before. Do you have a copy of your grandfather's book on Willie Boy? I am hungry for information. I would love to read it. I will buy it, if it is for sale. Thanks for contacting me
Best regards,
Ron House
www.ronhouseproductions.com

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

One on-going curiosity is this: the site has always been labeled "Ruby Mountain," from the very beginning of the stories to the latest books and plays, and yet the real Ruby Mountain is 5-7 miles away from the mountain on which the marker is situated. How is that? No one has ever written "Ruby Mountain area," but always Ruby Mountain. Amd there are several valleys between Ruby Mountaqin and the monument; the monument is not even in what could reasonable be labeled the Ruby Mountain area." The question is this - is the monument really on the site of the actual shoot-out [I note there is no rock fortress/wall or whatever that he supposedly erected to protect humself in the shootout], or are they diverting attention from the real site, actually somewhere on the real Ruby Mountain, out of cultural sensitivity, respect, or some other value?

Willie Boy

I lived in high desert for long time, livied in landers in the 70"s as a teen, and went to morongo res. all the time too, the people in the 1900"s just kepted pushing natives around would"nt leave well alone, willie boy was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

If you pull all the narratives from the various family histories, this is a great story for future generations to study. No need to decide how accurate one story is over another since, as you say, memories fade and narratives change over time. The days of perfectly memorizing history are gone but we can still learn from the narratives.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

I did see alot of cool indian rock carvings on the west side of Old Women Springs road near Bodick. Once I saw a guy tracing them so he could study them.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

saw the grave site yesterday. It is pretty cool but is has a chain link fence around the headstone plaque. I took a picture. My question is did he die there or is this a relocated grave? I did not see anyone patrolling the roads or chasing my quad

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

Hi: We represent an archaological and historial research society.  Two of our researchers were looking for the Willy Boy gravesite on 4-15-2011.  They got as far as the odd fence and the boundary marker which prohibits offroading.  But, they did not know in which direction to walk the 2.5 to 3 miles to the site.  Would they hike north, south, east, west, straight ahead, veer off to the right or left of the fence?  We are aware that we can use our GPS device, but would like some firsthand information as to the terrain, landmarks along the way, etc.  According to Google Earth, it is in the direction of that cement cystern which is near the fence. We would appreciate some help, if possible.  We have been researching Willy Boy's story for a number of years.  Thanks

schara@yahoo.com

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

I don't know north from south there, but it is on down that winding road [which you can go on, regardless of signs], past the cistern, and on top of a ridge. But that is not a grave; it is a memorial of the shoot-out site. There was no grave, because there was no body! Willie Boy escaped and went on to Nevada. If you note the photographed body [whose face tellingly is never shown!], it was quite fat; WB was lithe, athletic kid who could run like the wind. The claim about the bod is that it is fat from death-bloat. Garbage: the belt would not have expanded with the flesh, yet that belt is of proper size for the "bloated" body. It was a pride-based hoax that they killed him; he ran like the wind to safety, dying of TB decades later.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

Hi I just ran across these comments on Willie Boy and I Just wanted to add information to these postings. first of all the information about Charlie Reche is correct who was part of the San Bernardino County Sheriff Posse and he was shot in the leg during the scuffle in Landers area. I recieved this information from a long time family friend and Charlie Reche's grandson Morgan Reche who used to be a resident of Yucca Valley and the Reche homestead @ Goat Mountain in Landers. Morgan now resides in Idaho where I also lived and worked with him before moving to Yucca Valley where my wife grew up 22yrs ago. Morgan was generally contacted anytime people were doing a story on Willie Boy and was in Landers at the dedication of the Willie Boy Monument.Morgan also has a oil painting of Charlie Reche hanging in his home which i always commented on how much Charlie resembled the late actor Jason Robards. hope this information helps

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

i live in banning and i was talking to our mailman and found out that his great grandfather was charles reche. (from the posse)

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

This has been an interesting series of comments and, while I find the differing versions interesting, it is truly a shame that there has not been more recognition of the tragedy caused by what seems to be a basic clash of cultures, which began with a parent's disapproval of his daughters suitor. Whether Willie Boy acted in self-defense, or killed the father out of spiteful willfulness, it remains clear that the prejudice and animosity directed toward the indian population was sufficient to create a lethal environment, which resulted in the tragic death of a young couple in love.... THAT is the context and reality that has been lost, but should remain the true focus of this unfortunate event in our recent history.

Willie Boy Grave site

We were out visiting the grave site on 10/4/2009.
We had no trouble getting to the grave site. Get a topo map, the roads are clearly marked.
From Highway 247 in Landers, (There is a yellow sign on 247 for New dixie Mine Road) head west on New Dixie Mine Road about 6 miles to a road heading north
There is a metal post at the junction. Head north to the end of the road about 3 miles. The grave site is fenced off. A picnic table is nearby as well.
DO NOT drive past the wilderness boundary as others have. We saw a ranger on patrol. We walked in the last 2.5 miles. The day was cool but on hot days you better carry water. Not as level as others have noted. But an easy 90 minutes each way.

Willie Boy

Only Mike Boniface was killed in the incident. It was the "yellow press" reporters who sensationalized Willie into being a drunken serial murder and into Carlota being shot in the breast by Willie Boy after a savage drunken rage rape and beating. The possie member was not killed, just wounded badly and survied much to everyone's suprise and relief. Carlota was shot from behind from a distance of approx 100 feet. She was wearing Willy Boy's jacket and it is generally concluded that she was mistakenly shot by John Hyde, who thought she was Willy Boy from that distance of viewing.

Re: Willie Boy

Shot by Hyde, and then covered up by the rest of law enforcement on scene, with blame shifted to Willie Boy, to enable Ben to obtain a permanent appointment [he got it] and to enable Wilson's re-election [he was]. Law enforcement practices have not changed much in the past 100 years.

Re: Willie Boy

There have been tragic events in every culture on this planet since human life began. All cultures have brutilized and have been brutilized throughout history. There have been so many who have loved and lost and fought for what they believed in. The world has changed for the better in some places but remain brutal in others. As far as the United States, Law Enforcement has come a long way and for the better. To state Law Enforcement practices have not changed much in the past 100 years is just ignorant babble!!! Law enforcement is ever changing to the demands of society, there is no perfect solution for each occurance. Having been in Law Enforcement for the past 18 years I can say that the magority of Police Officers are hounest, hard working people who want to do the right thing. When you hear of an officer making a poor decision, you hear the uneducated, loud mouthed know it alls run their mouths how all cops are dirty, Really???? So do you have the same opinion to the doctors, lawyers, salesman and so on when you hear one of them going bad or making a bad judgement?? Probably not!! Look up how many people die at the hands of the medical comunity every year and then look at the number that die at the hands of officers, there is no comparison but I'll bet you still go to the doctor when you'er sick. More people die at the hands of others driving cars then die at the hands of police but you still drive. I grew up on the other side of the tracks, so to speak and have made my share of mistakes but I don't just jump on the bandwagon and tear other people down when I don't even have any facts to back them up. I did'nt grow up hating police officers because I got caught doing something I knew was wrong, how pathetic would I be if I did?? I never went to court and cried like a baby and lied to the judge about running the stop sign like 99 percent of the people do that go to court now days. I grew up knowing I had to take responsibility for my actions and to do it like a mature adult. I don't throw everyone into the fire based on the actions of a few!!!

There are plenty of times when someone gets into any business that should'nt be there and causes an incident that drags everyone down. I for one am proud to be a police officer and do my job to the best of my abilities. There is no way to respond to everyones needs that will satisfy everyone.

I'm sure that law enforcement 100 years ago had difficulty with the changing cultures probably more so then we do today. Law enforcement today have unlimited resorces that were not even heard of then. Most law enforcement agencies did not have any training at all and anyone taking the job did it based on their own life experience. Imagine that!!! Just like any other type of profession!!!!

So before you go on your "I hate the cops" campain please feel free to come on down and show us all how it's done. Who know's you may actually have an idea that would change law enforcement forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have Choctaw Indian in my blood lines along with French and German. My ancestors come from different parts of the world and had to fight for what they thought was right at the time. I do not know anyone who knew Willy Boy but would love to spend time with someone from that arra but I know they are long gone and a part of history. I don't know if Willy Boy was just a criminal who just wanted to do what ever he wanted and to hell with everyones laws or if white mans culture or Indian culture drove him the direction he went. Without having been there in those times I can't even imagine how hard it would be to except that your culture was being exterminated all around you and there was nothing you could do about it no matter how hard you fought back. To state Willy Boy was just a Lawless outlaw of that time without having been there is no better then stating all law enforcement is corrupt!!!!!!

I have explored the back country of the west for many years and have often dreamed of what it was like living on all sides, Indians, Law Men and Outlaws. I once found a cave outside of Farmington New Mexico that an outlaw named Sam Carson once hid out in. I learned of the outlaws horse and cattle rustling back in the early 80s and it has facinated me since. I was young then and now in my fifties still want to go back and explore the cave as a more mature and educated adult.

I will always fantasize about the Wild West and what it must have been like to roam free without fences or Laws. The ability to get on a horse and ride till you'er tired and live where you wished. Those days are over but will forever be in my mind......

Re: Willie Boy

Sir I strongly agree with everything you say. I have been on the wrong side of the law years ago what ever happened to me I deserved. If you do the crime be ready to do the time. I wish now so many times I could have went into law enforcement. Like I thought my children and grandchildren the man that wears the badge is here to help you even if it cost his life. I too have Choctaw blood in me and love exploring the old west.

I thank you sir for what you do in law enforcement

Re: Willie Boy

Hello, Rick,

It's nice to hear someone who is even minded when it comes to topics like this. It sounds like you have done well if you brought up children and they had children of their own. In the end we all make our own decisions and have to live by them. Not all people that break the law are bad people, we all make mistakes, man I've made a few! You sound like someone I would love to sit down with and talk with someday.

John

Willie Boy.....

He killed 2 people, even indians understood that. None of them diserved that, even white people, understand that.So under either culture, he was, and is a killer so get over it. A killer is a killer...................

Re: Willie Boy.....

It's cowardly people like "anonymous" here that perpetuate racism and hate.
It's obvious Mrs.Anonymous, Mother if a History Teacher, that you have no idea of Indian Culture and history. It's a shame that you don't take the time to look at the reality of the genocide of our only TRUE NATIVE AMERICANS. I suppose your ancestors came over on the Mayflower and thought of Indians as heathens to be saved by your religion. You are so ill informed and hateful that I sincerely hope that you adopt a more Christian attitude and stop judging people and events that you know nothing of. I also hope that YOU get over it.
BB

Re: Willie Boy.....

BB, as the great, great grandson of a full blood Coctaw woman I can say without reservation that your entire screed is nothing but politically correct twaddle. First off calling Willie Boy a murderer is not "hateful" but just a different OPINION as there is some dispute as to the reason Willie Boy killed Mike Boniface. What has THAT got to do Indian Culture. Next you express a fair amount of ignorance and hate yourself. The Indians ARE NOT native to North or South America but immigrated here JUST LIKE EVRYBODY ELSE! And as far as genocide goes they tried their damnedest to do it to White people as well. White folks are no more guilty of the sins of humanity than anyone else! Look at your OWN hands BB they are COVERED in blood.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

To those interested in Willie Boy - I would encourage my friends here to take a broader view of the acts of 25 september 1909. eThe whole Willie Boy incident is treated by white people as some sort of detective case instead of a culture clash. No one mentions the fact that Swift Fox or Willie Boy was an Indians. He danced the "Ghost Dance" dance with Wokova a Paiute. who had a vision of the meeting of the alive and dead Indians coming together. The return of the Buffalo. Swift Fox/ Willie Boy believed in the after life. Nothing is mention of the desperate plight of the Indians. The genocide of the Indians like "Wounded Knee". The total disregard of our native brothers but the US government.

The Indians Lost the War but in their losing they find Pride. The whites Won the War but in their winning they find Shame.

Geronimo was held as prisoner of War of 22 years at Fort Still Ok. Not one confederate was ever held as a prisoner of war. Why one law for the Indians another for the whites.

This will be further studied beginning at the HiDesert Playhouse on September 18 till October 3 in the Production of Swift Fox the Conflicting stories of Willie Boy. Please join us there will be a discussion every night after the performance.

yours sincerely,

Ron House

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

Maybe [harsher treatment of the Indians than the Confederates] because no one believed the South would rise again and they really thought the Indian Tribes would continue to fight for their survival. Just kidding! : )

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

Gail,the tribes weren't just fighting for their survival. They were trying to exterminate White Americans. That's the part of the social equation that gets lost in the Marxist interpretaion of our history.
Also, I'm not sure you could say that the treatment of the Indians was harsher (consider the pellagra epidemic in the South) it just lasted longer. But that was because the Whites had been fighting the Indians since the 1600's. As far as the South rising again just check out the recent scholarship concerning the real motivation behind the career of the James/Younger gang.
I find it interesting to note that the problems of both the Indians and the Southerners didn't really get attended to until the Sixties. I don't think either group had been a threat for more than half a century!

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

Ron, it always surprises me how you left wingers justify your anti-White racism. If men like Wovoka or Pontiac or Tecumseh had gotten their way every White person on the continent would have been exterminated. Not EXACTLY "We are the World"! But you just keep pumping your propaganda that excuses Indian acts of mass murder against Whites it seems to make you soooo happy.
P.S. as a man whose parents are both Southerners your ignorant statement regarding the aftermath of the Civil War is breath taking! There was no need to have any Confederate prisoners as the Union Army occupied the entire South and did everything they could keep it racked with poverty for more than a decade! And even when they left the economic elite of the U.S. (headquartered in "liberal" New York) subjected the South to economic segregation for another (almost) SEVENTY YEARS until FDR (who because of his polio treatments in Warm Springs Georgia learned what the Northern "economic royalists" had done to the South)decided to try and do something about it. A goal that wasn't fully achieved until the 1960's(!) under LBJ!
People of Color are NOT the ONLY victims of "White Society" and they, also, are NOT innocent of the crimes of mass murder and genocide just less successful( on THIS continent anyway!). So SPARE me your ignorant self righteousness!

The Untold Story of Willie Boy

Dear Mitchell - I am assuming you attended the reading of Swift Fox at Riverside Community Players. Thank you for your support and interest in history. I was unable to attend due to knee surgery.

To answer some of your points-

I am not anti-white. I was reporting what happened based on historical records. I am not inventing these things. However, there are a lot of holes in the Willie Boy story, therefore I tried to report the same event as told by different people.

"If men like Wovoka or Pontiac or Tecumseh had gotten their way every White person on the continent would have been exterminated". -

This statement is based on what? Tecumseh, in the 1840's, went to Washington to negotiate with the government- hardly an act of a "White Hating Savage" It sounds like you are coming more out of anger than fact. Remember, Gral;. William Tecumseh Sherman I imagine you have low regard for Uncle Billy and his march to Georgia, however, he was given this name long before the conflict 1861-1865. My point being, Tecumseh must have been held in high regard by many white people, if they were naming their children after him.

" But you just keep pumping your propaganda that excuses Indian acts of mass murder against Whites it seems to make you soooo happy." -

Let's start with the worst atrocities of the 19th. century with 365 Indians who were cut down with gatling guns, "Wounded Knee", following with "The trail of tears", which I assume you know was "The Removal of the Indian tribes from the Carolinas" by then president Jackson .

Could you please mention just ONE mass murder equivalent to the ones stated above?

" your ignorant statement regarding the aftermath of the Civil War is breath taking! There was no need to have any Confederate prisoners as the Union Army occupied the entire South and did everything they could keep it racked with poverty for more than a decade"

I am very aware of the reconstruction period. The South was divided in 13 military districts and remained an occupied territory until the "Bloody Shirt Campaign" in the election of 1876. The point is not about the need to imprison Confederates, but the fact that it was done to the Indians and not done to the Confederates- both enemies of the Federal Gov.
There was no need to confiscate 90 million acres of tribal land and force Indians on to reservation.
Is your point that it wasn't necessary in the South but it was necessary for the indians?

I will now close and again thank you for your response to Swift Fox: The Untold Story of Willie Boy.

Sincerely,

Ron House
ronhouseproductions.com

Re: The Untold Story of Willie Boy

O.k. first off Ron,
"This statement is based on what?" On Tecumseh own words!Such as "let the white race perish.They seize your land ,they corrupt your women(in other words Tecumseh was a racist who was against interracial marriage),they trample the bones of your dead! Back whence they came, upon a trail of blood , they must be driven, burn their dwellings, destroy their stock, slay their wives and children, that the very breed may perish!" Is that good enough for you Ron?
The Trail of Tears happened because having Indians in those areas constituted a fifth column that was always being encouraged and supplied to wage war by both outside Indian leaders (like Tecumseh and Pontiac) or European powers like the French (as in the French and Indian War)or the British (as in the War of 1812:fighting the Red Stick Creeks). There would have been no loss of life on the Trail had it not been for the obstinance of the anti-treaty Cherokee leaders. The pro-treaty bands saw the jig was up and willingly went to Oklahoma and became quite successful (the anti-treaty bands would become successful eventually too). Andrew Jackson forced the "Five Civilized Tribes" out as the only way to AVOID mass killing. As far as ignorant and self loathing Whites naming their children after Tecumseh nothing much has changed in over a hundred years!
Next "Could you mention just ONE mass muder equivalent to the ones mentioned above?"
O.k. Ron, The Dakota Uprising of 1862! In which 450 to 800 innocent White civilians were cruelly and needlessly butchered! And almost as many disappeared and assumed to have been sold into slavery never to be seen again!How's that Ronny?
Next "Is it your contention that it wasn't necessary in the South but is was necessary for the Indians?" No Ron it was my contention that the U.S. Government made the WHOLE SOUTH a reservation for a HINDRED YEARS! But apparently you missed that!

I will now close and Thank You for YOUR response!
Yours in Truth,

Mitchell Day

Re: The Untold Story of Willie Boy

I think, Dear Mitchell, that you have some..., well, issues. I am not certain what the solution is.

Re: The Untold Story of Willie Boy

Yes Mike, I DO have issues. That is how some people point the finger at every body but themselves ;)

Re: The Untold Story of Willie Boy

And Ron's "Swift Fox...." is truly superb. I'm not sure of the cause of all the vitriol here [or maybe I am!], but only a fool or a hypocrite would assert that there was not a genocidal attitude of American "whites" against Native Americans [and there are vestiges of that animus even now]. That does not mean Native Americans are innocent of racial prejudice - the last Southern general to surrender after the Civil War was Stand Watie, a Cherokee chief who sided with the South [and became a brigadier general in the southern Army] because he wanted to be able to keep his black slaves!

Re: The Untold Story of Willie Boy

Capmotion to whom are you directing your post? What do you mean by"maybe I am!". Who exactly has claimed that there was no "genocidal" attitude of White Americans? It certainly wasn't me (by the way "cappy" why do you use lower case letters and quotes for Whites do you have some unstated animus towards us?)! I was just stating that the Indians were guilty of hatred and genocidal atrocities as well which you also state but only after prodding by me! As far as your comments regarding Stand Watie and the Cherokees of Oklahoma fighting for the South it had nothing to do with slavery as the Indians version of that repugnant institution hardly qualified for the title. It was because they didn't trust the U.S. Government to keep it's treaty obligations!

In conclusion thanks for your remarks they are VERY revealing!
Yours in Truth,

Mitchell Day

Re: The Untold Story of Willie Boy

I use lower case for "whites" because we are not usually as politically sensitive as other groups about such absurdisms. Not usually!

Re: The Untold Story of Willie Boy

You also didn't explain the quotes.

Re: The Untold Story of Willie Boy

I'm not any more sensitive about subtle social slights to my community by self-loathing members of it than anyone else.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

Thank you for this most educated and informed post.

Re: What ever happened to Willie Boy.....

I agree. All parties are quite educated. However, all stories have three sides to them. One's, the other's, and the truth. We will possibly never learn the truth, but may make some educated guesses.

PS: Johnette: Big Fan!

Re: Willie Boy.....

I join Ron in suggesting that those interested in this subject attend the fine production Ron is putting on in Joshua Tree. I attended a public reading of the script, largely [exclusively?] written by Ron, based on Burgess/Sandoz as well as the racist versions, and the play will be incredible, and informative. [Indeed, everything Ron produces/directs/scripts is superb.]

Also, on September 26, there will be a symposium on the subject at the Gilman Ranch, which is where Willie Boy and Mike Boniface were working when this all commenced.

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